Interview

with Renuka Chowdhury, Union Minister for Women and Child Development by Neerja Chowdhury

 

How do you see the role of your ministry?

By 2020 India is going to be host to the youngest, productive population in the world, exporting intelligence, well ahead of China or Europe which have a large ageing population. Every sixth person in the world is going to be an Indian. It is imperative we invest in this 72% of the population made up of women and children under 18. This is the opportunity.

On the flip side is the unhappy statistics – the declining girl ratio, the continuing discrimination against women and children, infant and maternal mortality rates which are not falling fast enough. India by the way has the largest number of diabetics and the blind and a worsening HIV/AIDS situation. Equally troubling is the feminization of poverty exacerbated by globalization.

Notwithstanding our 9.5% growth rate, there is a firm anchor holding us back from taking a giant leap forward. That is the underdevelopment of women and children.

 

People have an image of Renuka Chowdhury atop a tractor, not someone who digs her heels in to get things done.

I can tell you mine is the most happening ministry today. I am confident that it will be the most relevant ministry from the point of view of India’s growth. If I am not troubled for the next two years, and left with a free hand, I can tell you I am going to deliver.

 

In what way is your approach going to be different?

We have to separate women from children in administration and approach. For far too long we have clubbed them together. Women cannot be seen merely as milch cows and production units for the population. There is very little investment made in women per se. One just views them as a pregnant woman or a rape statistic.

Many of the changes that have come have been influenced by the judiciary, like stating that the woman is the natural guardian of the child. It is such an obvious statement but it had to be made.

 

What are the pressing issues pertaining to children for the 11th five year plan period?

For the first time awareness has been brought about the child as an independent entity. The Child Rights Convention has been established. There is the Integrated Child Protection Scheme, which is an umbrella of services that has been started. The Juvenile Justice Act is part of it and one can go in for adoption under this act – whether it is a single parent, a divorcee, a widow, or a person belonging to any religion. The act has also removed silly anomalies like if you have a girl you cannot adopt another girl, and so on.

We are committed to a Child Nutrition Mission, to universalizing ICDS. My ministry really pushed hard for it.

 

I know it is part of the Common Minimum Programme of the UPA to universalize the ICDS. But the ICDS has become a routine portfolio of the ministry with little energy. There is not enough focus on children below one, there are vacancies which are not filled, there is the question of training and motivating the anganwadi workers and, of course, the problem of poverty and food security. Let’s face it, ICDS is not particularly effective today.

Yes, there are the good and the bad pockets as far as ICDS is concerned. What we are lacking is supervision. I am now asking the Rotarians to play a supervisory role. They have 17,000 branches, and can at least cover 17,000 anganwadi centres. They are not going to be interested in selling boiled eggs or running away with the anaj. I am also looking at banks, local industries, Red Cross, Kendriya Vidyalayas as possible partners to help with monitoring.

Under the ICDS, we also supply toys and kits. Do you know not one state government has bothered to buy the kits and toys in 60 years? This year I said [to my ministry], if they don’t buy, you buy. It is between 0-5 years that the biggest developmental and nutritional mapping takes place, when the child’s brain needs stimulation.

 

But surely, this can be chased up with the state governments?

The bureaucracy gives me the standard answer – ‘We have written letters.’ You can wait till the cows come home. I want results not arguments. But it is like moving the dead.

Then, there is no awareness campaign. If breastfeeding is so critical for the child between zero to one year, the message has to go out there to young women. We are now tying up with All India Radio for the anganwadi programme.

 

Again, while there is an anganwadi system in place, is it really working as it was meant to?

I keep sending decoys from time to time. I must tell you this story. One such person I sent found a boy sitting outside an AWC. He was asked what he was doing there. He starting shouting, ‘I don’t want panjeri, I don’t want to eat panjeri,’ and started running away from the AWC because of the ‘panjeri’. In my district in Andhra, I have raided godowns and told officials that only if they can eat that food three times a day should it be given to the children.

 

Besides the quality of food that is supplied, which is insipid and bad, there is the question of who supplies the food. I believe self help groups have been successful in doing this in several states?

I am removing corporates from supplying food to AWC. I have also asked the media to a rank the states on the basis of how many AWC are functioning well and how gender friendly they are.

Another happy development is that G.K. Vasan, whose ministry is looking after the MP LAD scheme, has allowed these funds to be used for the construction of anganwadi centres with toilets. We can create a prototype. Today, many AWCs are held under a tree. The finance ministry told me to hire buildings in the village. But where are these buildings? The sarpanch says take this two by two feet space in my house. However, that’s asking for trouble.

The toilets attached to AWCs are critical. Half the child dropouts are girls between the classes of six to eight. They start their menstrual cycle and there are no toilets.

 

The National Family Health Survey shows no improvement in the levels of child malnutrition. Every second child in India continues to be malnourished, and 80% of the children are anaemic. I know a group of younger MPs have activised themselves on this issue but where, according to you, lies the problem?

There are a host of intricate cross-connections resulting in this. Malnutrition is the biggest reason for infant and maternal mortality. There are far too many under-age and malnourished mothers. There are rising anaemic levels. I introduced several bills last year [to address these problems]. There was the Prohibition of Child Marriage Act. Under this law, whether it is a tentwalla or a priest or a guest or a food supplier participating in the wedding of a child, they will be penalized. We are going to have a cash reward system for who gives information.

We have also strengthened prenatal testing and the media has helped in this. We are thinking of how to calibrate the machines and carry out quick random surveys. If we find that the prenatal tests at a clinic during a particular period have all involved young pregnant women, we know what is happening.

I am now going in for a cash transfer scheme related to the birth of a girl child. We will tell mothers that they will get stipulated sums from 0 to 6 years, from 6 to 8th standard, and from 8th standard to the age of 18. If they educate and immunize the girl, her kharcha will be taken care of. Except for Gujarat, most states have come forward.

We have also said that if a girl remains under 35 kgs from the age of 11 onwards, she will get an additional 5 kg of cereal a month under the public distribution system. But the condition is that she will have to gain weight progressively.

Then there is the compulsory registration of pregnancies, and focus on institutional deliveries. Do you know that there is no database on this in my ministry, even though we have been pouring in money for 60 years now? It is time to put the infrastructure in place as we go to the 11th Plan.

Ultimately, giving birth to a girl has to become an asset. Things will not change until she is seen and accepted as an investment yielding more returns. Housing in rural areas has to be in the girl’s name. Anyone who transfers property to a woman should be given tax concessions.

 

While children remain a soft issue, women at least are emerging as a pressure group, if not a vote bank. How do you put the children’s issues centrally on the political agenda?

I am deeply grateful to Sonia Gandhi, who pushed for the universalization of the ICDS and the money for it was given. I am also grateful to the prime minister. I have met him and he agrees that we have to be in a mission mode. He will soon be calling a meeting of the National Nutrition Mission, of which he is the chairman.

 

After Nithari, there has suddenly been an outcry against child abuse. What steps are you taking on child protection?

Yes, Nithari has sensitized people and the media. But it is so sad that children have to meet a violent death to bring about the change in us.

Child sex abuse is probably the most denied area. Cultural practices give a leeway to it, like the saying ‘saali aadhi gharwali’, or the superstition that if you sleep with a virgin child, it will cure venereal disease. These are such absurdities. Apart from the Integrated Child Protection Scheme, we have to bring in the concept of value addition when planning for the girl child. We have to sensitize other ministries. I have written to the home ministry that women should constitute 33% of the police force.

 

The trouble is that we do not even react when things stare us in the face, as happened in Nithari.

Nothing happened till we moved and sent a high level committee to enquire. I have now sent a notice to the Kerala government [about the shocking death of children in a government hospital]. This is the first time such a thing has happened. If they do not reply I will send a committee to probe the matter.

I am establishing my unitary rights on the strength of the Constitution. If they don’t answer I have a right to question them.

 

There has been criticism in some quarters about the appointment of members on the newly formed Child’s Commission?

This is not true. It is a multi-disciplinary group. This is the first time that a commission of this sort has been conceptualized. Besides academicians, we have administrators, there is a policeman, a doctor, two child experts and so on.

 

How can there be better coordination between your ministry and other ministries that are involved in children’s issues? Is coordination a challenge?

We have asked for rationalization. The street children, for instance, come under the labour ministry. I can’t fathom why there should be a separate commissioner for them; why should they [labour ministry] get into the rehabilitation and nutrition of these children and have the children ping-pong between two ministries?

There are 14 ministries involved in child nutrition, including rural development, social welfare, health, women and child development, agriculture, HRD [the mid-day meal scheme is under the HRD]. There is a serious problem of getting things done.

I feel it should be rationalized under three heads – agriculture, women and child development and public distribution. Health is about immunization, not about cooking food. Malaria leads to anaemia; so do car emissions. The health ministry should worry about that. It is not that I want to take someone else’s job but if I have to answer questions in Parliament, I must know what I am doing. Currently there is insufficient accountability.

If we have an inter-ministerial group that is standardized, and state governments are brought on board, we will be able to move forward. But this is the least important issue for the state governments. How many chief ministers come to the Planning Commission to ask for money for women and children?

 

While a lot needs to be done, there have been rapid changes in recent years…

I believe there have been three important steps taken since Raja Rammohan Roy fought for widow remarriage. The first was when Rajiv Gandhi revolutionized things by providing 33% reservation to women to run panchayats through the 72nd and 73rd Constitution amendments. Today their representation has progressed to 42%.

The second was the establishment of the micro-finance scheme under Manmohan Singh when he was Finance Minister. Women are now getting credit without a collateral. There is a silent revolution taking place in the countryside because of micro-finance for women. Their dress has changed; their body language has changed. They are confident about returning the loan. They tell me their husbands do not beat them any more, are more respectful and even borrow money from the womenfolk.

If you want to end female foeticide, the way to do it is not by calling her ‘meri ladli’ but ensuring that the girl is a viable asset. And that she breaks out of stereotypical jobs. Then there are the cultural practices and changing these is a difficult task.

The third is gender budgeting that Finance Minister Chidambaram talked about. I have now asked for a gender audit.

***

 

Recently appointed Chairperson of the National Commission for the Protection of Children’s Rights, Shantha Sinha brings to her new office decades of experience of working at the grassroots level. As founder secretary trustee of the Mamidipudi Venkatrangiya Foundation (MVF) in Hyderabad, her work has centred on reducing the gap between poor children and mainstream education. Honoured with the Padmashri in 1999 and the Ramon Magsasay Award for Community Leadership in 2003, she spoke to Mannika Chopra on the imperative to create a national thinking that believes in all children enjoying their childhood.

 

What was the provocation to set up the commission and what are its priorities?

The commission has been set up to recognize the fact that something very unfair is happening to children in this country and that there are many issues that need to be addressed if India has to stand up with pride on the world stage as a big democracy. Having said this, the commission has four tasks that it must address. The first is to create a moral indignation in the country that child rights are not being protected. A kind of national conscience has to be created that pricks everyone to work for children. Armed with this kind of a mood the commission will look at the gaps in the policy and legal framework. The commission’s brief is to make recommendations to see that a rights based perspective is adhered to by the government while it makes its policies. Third, it will take up specific cases that come up before it for redressal of grievances. At times it should not even wait for the complaints to come but take up suo motu cases, summon the violators before the commission and recommend to the government action based on an inquiry.

Finally, the role of the commission is to arm itself with proper research and documentation. The legitimacy and credibility of what we say and do will come from solid research and data. Though everyone in the country knows that children are not being treated well, this has to be substantiated by information and cannot just be an emotional argument. Today there is no dynamic data available. The census does report once every ten years, but that is too long to wait to find out what is happening to children.

 

How grim are the existing statistics?

Very. If one talks about nutrition, there is today is no guarantee that one in ten children will survive till it is five years old. We have still not made any progress from the last National Family Health Survey, with 46.8 per cent children still malnourished, that is half our country’s children. Infant mortality has crossed the 63.8 per thousand births mark. It’s a kind of tsunami that has hit young babies in our country. If one looks at the number of children going to school, one finds that 58 per cent do not even complete five years of education and only 22 per cent complete tenth class. There are reports showing that even on completing class five, many children are still unable to read and write.

And what happens to children when they are pushed out of school or drop out? When they drop out of school, millions of children end up working; in fact our country boasts the largest number of child labour in the world today which according to the 2001 census is 5.4 million.

 

Is there a linkage between child labour and education and is that the biggest challenge before the commission?

I think you have hit the nail on the head – there is a link between child labour and guaranteeing children a right to education. One would think that if children are not in school they must be doing some kind of work. This could be either for their own family on a non-wage basis or wage-based where children are trafficked, when they are sent long distances to work. Food, clothing and shelter that most of us depend on to live with dignity are all produced with child work.

 

Granted, but how do you counter the argument that children from poor families necessarily need to work to enhance incomes?

When one looks at the fact that the poorest of the poor are sending their children to school, I think the proper question to ask is, Why are they doing that in spite of their obvious poverty? Many poor people who don’t send their children to school do so not because of poverty but because they lack a social environment that gives them the confidence to choose schooling.

The myth that children do not go to school because they are poor is false and has to be exposed. It comforts all of us to think so for it makes us feel that we can do nothing about it. When I say we, I mean the enlightened sections, the middle class, the policy-makers, the intellectuals. It is we who manufacture ideas. It’s such a huge responsibility on us to think the right things.

 

How can you combat intangibles like thinking?

It is easy to combat it with the poor because there is an explosive demand for education among them. In fact, the poor spend more than 50 per cent of their earnings to see that their children go to school and continue there. They spend on fees, uniforms and tuitions. They see education as the only way to break the cycle of poverty. The demand is such that schools are overcrowded. Despite the lack of infrastructure they have immense faith in the system. They face systemic insults when there are no classrooms, no teachers, and no books. Then they face other kinds of insults when children are physically abused, scolded or humiliated. How much more do the poor need to do to show that they want their children to study?

 

Specifically, what will be your strategy?

The strategy is to create a mood in trying to expand the base of child rights protagonists. We will need to talk to as many sections of people as possible – from the corporate world to political players to media, the intellectuals and employers. One has to widen the constituency of those who think it is important for the country to have its children enjoy their childhood. So the strategy is to expand the terrain of discourse on children and their rights. The media has a vital role to play in this. And I think there needs to be a collective strategy where the media speaks with one voice. The regional media has as much of a role to play as the national media.

 

You have said that the role of NGOs as a bridge is crucial. Did your experience with MV Foundation help you significantly?

The reason why I feel so positive is because one has worked at the grassroots level, one has seen things change. There is a huge volunteer base cutting across NGOs who are working hard for the rights of the poor, child rights and their entitlement. Sometime I feel that the youth volunteers who don’t get even Rs 1,000 per month, are active because they see there is a kind of space in India where one can organize protests, question policies and change things. The role of the NGO is really to stand by the poor in their battle for entitlements, guide them with information and ensure access to institutions. The NGO’s role is for putting people forward and empower them. They are here to push and give the community confidence to take action.

 

How easy or difficult has it been for you to shift from the independently run MV Foundation to the establishment?

From the beginning, when I was with the MV Foundation, I knew that one has to bargain and negotiate with the system. We have worked to see that there is a community interface between institutions with local bodies or communities. So the transition was not difficult.

But the task is not easy. We have the experience of working in 6000 villages and bringing 400,000 children from work into school. It is still much too small an effort when we think about what needs to be done in the country. What gives us strength and confidence is the principle on which we work – that we have to engage with the system; that one has to have faith in the democratic traditions of the country and that our actions strengthen these traditions rather than weaken them. These principles are non-negotiable whether one works in a village or in the country as a whole.

 

Was there any apprehension when you came to Delhi?

I don’t know what you would call it, maybe madness, but no, there was no apprehension.

 

Excitement then?

No, a lot of humility.